Discussion:
[twdev] [TW5/TWC] Interesting new "Beaker Browser" with peer-to-peer hosting
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Paul Frazee
2016-12-22 14:18:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeremy

Having said that, the way that Dat works means that the entire site syncs
to your machine, so there wouldn’t be savings in terms of network traffic.
That's not always the case. By default, you only download individual files.
A full file sync only happens if you rehost the site.

Gotcha. So would a reasonable strategy be to do a
dat.stat(document.location.split(“#”)[0]), and then if it comes back as a
directory, add “/index.html” to the URL?
Yes that would work.

-prf
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Dmitry Sokolov
2016-12-23 02:23:25 UTC
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Hi Jeremy,

thank you for posting your experience on TiddlyWiki running on the Beaker,
added to the list of TiddlyWiki platforms:
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/113574373/TiddlyWiki

I hope to write a comparison of the platforms in future.
Is anything else missing from the list?

Cheers,
Dmitry
I’ve now created a preliminary Dat file saver that works with Beaker
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/a20da9f5303fdd52a54d61b231450c2aa35d3804
A testament to the API, this is by far the shortest of the savers
currently supported by the core.
The saver is available in the latest prerelease build at
http://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease
So, here are full instructions for getting things up and running with the
1. Download and install the Beaker Browser from https://beakerbrowser.com/
2. Download index.html from http://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/index.html (or
download and rename http://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/empty.html)
3. Run Beaker, and if necessary open a tab to beaker:start
4. Click the cloud icon in the left column
5. Click the green “New” button
6. Enter the details of your site
7. Click the link “select them manually” and upload the index.html file
you downloaded in (2)
8. View the site by clicking on the link to index.html; it should open in
a new tab
9. Try out creating tiddlers, and saving changes
Let me know how you get on,
Best wishes
Jeremy
Beaker Browser (https://beakerbrowser.com) is a very interesting new
browser forked from Chromium that adds the ability to serve sites to other
browsers over a peer-to-peer network. It seems like a perfect fit for
TiddlyWiki.
The browser can host a number of sites, each of which is a bundle of files
and folders. They are served on a protocall called “Dat”, where the URLs
dat://eaec2913b78d11a81a68775068fb3107e9029b746e7cbc6d1a1926190c9f6f05/index.html
My Beaker Browser will serve that URL to other browsers; other Beaker
Browsers can view the site, and fork it.
I’ve made a brief video that demonstrates how to get up and running in the

The video doesn’t show an extremely neat feature called “Live Reload”
where clients get automatically reloaded when the site changes.
The next step is to use the Dat API to create a saver module for TW5 so
that one can edit and save directly. The resulting user experience will be
just like TiddlyFox; saving will just work.
If it’s not clear that I’m quite excited, I think this is the distributed
TiddlySpot that we’ve been waiting for. The nice simple API would make it a
https://beakerbrowser.com/docs/apis/dat.html
URL I gave above. Create your own site and post the URL here.
Best wishes
Jeremy.
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Jeremy Ruston
2016-12-22 14:45:08 UTC
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Hi Paul
Having said that, the way that Dat works means that the entire site syncs to your machine, so there wouldn’t be savings in terms of network traffic.
That's not always the case. By default, you only download individual files. A full file sync only happens if you rehost the site.
Thanks for the clarification, that makes a lot of sense; I’ll continue to investigate storing the wiki as individual files.
Gotcha. So would a reasonable strategy be to do a dat.stat(document.location.split(“#”)[0]), and then if it comes back as a directory, add “/index.html” to the URL?
Yes that would work.
Great, many thanks,

Best wishes

Jeremy
-prf
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Dmitry Sokolov
2016-12-23 23:34:26 UTC
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Thank you Jeremy and Paul,
this all looks very promising.
I am working on a concept that will be based on the P2P federated wiki, yet
to be developed.

I made at attempt towards co-ordinating or work:
http://confocal-manawatu.pbworks.com/w/page/114069763/TiddlyWiki%20Intents%20Map
It looks like we are moving towards implementation of IPFS protocol on
TiddlyWiki.
Anything missing from the list of features is to be added later.

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Dmitry
Hi Dmitry
how would you host/share tiddlers as separate files, please?
Beaker (and Dat) have the concept of a “site” as a bundle of files and
folders. Right now I’m working with a full TiddlyWiki HTML file stored
within the site. The plan is to extend things so that we can run TiddlyWiki
in a similar way to the Node.js configuration, where each tiddler is (or
can be) a separate file.
The advantage with respect to twederation would be that it makes things
more efficient: one can request an individual tiddler from a remote site,
instead of the entire wiki. Having said that, the way that Dat works means
that the entire site syncs to your machine, so there wouldn’t be savings in
terms of network traffic.
Best wishes
Jeremy
Cheers,
Dmitry
It’s working really great. The API is super easy to use and cool.
I’m thinking about ways of hosting TiddlyWiki’s with each tiddler as a
separate file so that we can do twederation efficiently; the API is fast
enough.
Best wishes
Jeremy.
The next step is to use the Dat API to create a saver module for TW5 so
that one can edit and save directly. The resulting user experience will be
just like TiddlyFox; saving will just work.
If it’s not clear that I’m quite excited, I think this is the
distributed TiddlySpot that we’ve been waiting for. The nice simple API
Very interesting indeed!
It seems they are also supporting the IPFS protocol
<https://beakerbrowser.com/docs/index.html>. see: text below video.
More interesting is, that it seems to have full file access api.
https://beakerbrowser.com/docs/apis/by-example.html
-m
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Mat
2016-12-25 10:33:27 UTC
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Beaker Browser (https://beakerbrowser.com) is a very interesting new
browser forked from Chromium that adds the ability to serve sites to other
browsers over a peer-to-peer network. It seems like a perfect fit for
TiddlyWiki.
Very interesting. Only Mac so I can't try anything but just to make sure I
understand the implications for a TW context;

- is the dat:// scheme not usable in regular browsers? (I find no public
site using it and basically no info on it outside of the Beaker project).
- ...and therefore, would one need special browsers both to admin a TW? ...
- ...and also to visit (merely read) a TW?

<:-)
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Jeremy Ruston
2016-12-26 08:10:51 UTC
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Very interesting. Only Mac so I can't try anything but just to make sure I understand the implications for a TW context;
Windows and Linux are coming, apparently.
- is the dat:// scheme not usable in regular browsers? (I find no public site using it and basically no info on it outside of the Beaker project).
No, the dat:// protocol isn't supported in regular browsers.
- ...and therefore, would one need special browsers both to admin a TW? ...
Yes, you need to use Beaker or something else that understands dat://
- ...and also to visit (merely read) a TW?
Yes, dat:// sites cannot be read with a regular browser.

Think of Beaker as being a variant of TiddlyDesktop that allows you to share your wikis with other users without requiring a central server. In other words, it's TiddlyDesktop with server-less federation...

Best wishes

Jeremy
<:-)
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Mat
2016-12-26 08:55:02 UTC
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Thanks for clarification!

<:-)
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PMario
2016-12-26 11:17:31 UTC
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Post by Mat
Very interesting. Only Mac so I can't try anything but just to make sure I
understand the implications for a TW context;
- is the dat:// scheme not usable in regular browsers? (I find no public
site using it and basically no info on it outside of the Beaker project).
- ...and therefore, would one need special browsers both to admin a TW? ...
- ...and also to visit (merely read) a TW?
As Jeremy points out, the dat:// protocol is not usable with other browsers
at the moment. ... But if it gets enough traction that other browsers would
loose market share, they may implement it. ... (in the future)

It's beta software atm. The version number is 0.5.x. So imo it's still
early enough, to get some of the TW ideas into the project, which will be
beneficial for both projects.

-mario
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Arlen Beiler
2016-12-26 23:52:33 UTC
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Jeremy,
I suppose Beaker has your spell checker that everyone wanted in
TiddlyDesktop :)

Also, if you do implement a tiddler-based format, would it use the standard
data folder format? Or if you need a new format to get authoritative file
names, could it possibly be ported back to NodeJS?

I have often thought about doing something like this with the TiddlyWiki
Dropbox saver, where it would sync individual files.

Another question, are these site files easily accessible on the file
system? Or is this another "Local store"? :)

Also, can you run regular chrome at the same time as this? I guess that
might be more of a dev question.

Sounds quite interesting.

Cheers,
-Arlen
Post by PMario
Post by Mat
Very interesting. Only Mac so I can't try anything but just to make sure
I understand the implications for a TW context;
- is the dat:// scheme not usable in regular browsers? (I find no public
site using it and basically no info on it outside of the Beaker project).
- ...and therefore, would one need special browsers both to admin a TW? ...
- ...and also to visit (merely read) a TW?
As Jeremy points out, the dat:// protocol is not usable with other
browsers at the moment. ... But if it gets enough traction that other
browsers would loose market share, they may implement it. ... (in the
future)
It's beta software atm. The version number is 0.5.x. So imo it's still
early enough, to get some of the TW ideas into the project, which will be
beneficial for both projects.
-mario
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Paul Frazee
2016-12-27 00:43:21 UTC
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I can answer some of those Beaker questions

Another question, are these site files easily accessible on the file
Post by Arlen Beiler
system? Or is this another "Local store"? :)
It's a local store but that's kind of an open question. We could move the
files into an easily-accessible path (eg ~/Dats) though I do lose a little
bit of control then. For instance, it might be nice to implement
transactional writes that fail if another tab writes the file concurrently,
and I won't be able to supply that guard as easily if apps other than
Beaker are writing to the files.

That said, we do have some tools for this already. If you watch this
screencast <https://beakerbrowser.com/docs/howto/use-bkr.html> you can see
the `bkr` command that lets you do checkouts of dat sites to custom
folders. We might be able to build on that.

I'm interested to hear what people want/need.

Also, can you run regular chrome at the same time as this? I guess that
Post by Arlen Beiler
might be more of a dev question.
Yeah it's a different data directory. No collisions
Post by Arlen Beiler
Jeremy,
I suppose Beaker has your spell checker that everyone wanted in
TiddlyDesktop :)
Also, if you do implement a tiddler-based format, would it use the
standard data folder format? Or if you need a new format to get
authoritative file names, could it possibly be ported back to NodeJS?
I have often thought about doing something like this with the TiddlyWiki
Dropbox saver, where it would sync individual files.
Another question, are these site files easily accessible on the file
system? Or is this another "Local store"? :)
Also, can you run regular chrome at the same time as this? I guess that
might be more of a dev question.
Sounds quite interesting.
Cheers,
-Arlen
Post by PMario
Post by Mat
Very interesting. Only Mac so I can't try anything but just to make sure
I understand the implications for a TW context;
- is the dat:// scheme not usable in regular browsers? (I find no public
site using it and basically no info on it outside of the Beaker project).
- ...and therefore, would one need special browsers both to admin a TW? ...
- ...and also to visit (merely read) a TW?
As Jeremy points out, the dat:// protocol is not usable with other
browsers at the moment. ... But if it gets enough traction that other
browsers would loose market share, they may implement it. ... (in the
future)
It's beta software atm. The version number is 0.5.x. So imo it's still
early enough, to get some of the TW ideas into the project, which will be
beneficial for both projects.
-mario
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Dmitry Sokolov
2016-12-27 04:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Paul,
I think, Beaker is a huge step towards P2P Web.
Thank you for that.

Most of my customers are working under Windows OS with files and folders.
Customers appreciate knowing how to backup and synchronise data because
that is critical for their business. Introducing "wiki" or anything else is
already too much for them. Ideally, the whole system must include no
elements to learn.

What I can also to talk about is kinds of information business is based on:

1. paper documents
2. electronic documents
3. ideas / concepts / topics, and
4. the way of organising all bits and pieces of information, above, for
quick access and reuse

What they know is that

1. paper documents are stored in folders on shelves and retained for
certain number of years / months
2. electronic documents are stored in computers and must be backuped
3. ideas, etc., are stored personally. Ideas management is a pain and
better not to touch it
4. overall, information management is a nightmare. Don't even talk about
that. Just give me a solution

Bottom line:
I can't talk about wikis and wiki stores.
I can talk about ideas

- stored individually, as single files,
- can be found as easy as the other (Windows?) files by their titles and
- opened in future by either MS Word, or by a web browser.
- All files and folders can be easily synchronised, accessed and
restored as soon as needed.

So, these are the frames I am trying to work in.
Your suggestions would be highly appreciated.

Cheers,
Dmitry
Post by Paul Frazee
I can answer some of those Beaker questions
Another question, are these site files easily accessible on the file
Post by Arlen Beiler
system? Or is this another "Local store"? :)
It's a local store but that's kind of an open question. We could move the
files into an easily-accessible path (eg ~/Dats) though I do lose a little
bit of control then. For instance, it might be nice to implement
transactional writes that fail if another tab writes the file concurrently,
and I won't be able to supply that guard as easily if apps other than
Beaker are writing to the files.
That said, we do have some tools for this already. If you watch this
screencast <https://beakerbrowser.com/docs/howto/use-bkr.html> you can
see the `bkr` command that lets you do checkouts of dat sites to custom
folders. We might be able to build on that.
I'm interested to hear what people want/need.
Also, can you run regular chrome at the same time as this? I guess that
Post by Arlen Beiler
might be more of a dev question.
Yeah it's a different data directory. No collisions
Post by Arlen Beiler
Jeremy,
I suppose Beaker has your spell checker that everyone wanted in
TiddlyDesktop :)
Also, if you do implement a tiddler-based format, would it use the
standard data folder format? Or if you need a new format to get
authoritative file names, could it possibly be ported back to NodeJS?
I have often thought about doing something like this with the TiddlyWiki
Dropbox saver, where it would sync individual files.
Another question, are these site files easily accessible on the file
system? Or is this another "Local store"? :)
Also, can you run regular chrome at the same time as this? I guess that
might be more of a dev question.
Sounds quite interesting.
Cheers,
-Arlen
Post by PMario
Post by Mat
Very interesting. Only Mac so I can't try anything but just to make
sure I understand the implications for a TW context;
- is the dat:// scheme not usable in regular browsers? (I find no
public site using it and basically no info on it outside of the Beaker
project).
- ...and therefore, would one need special browsers both to admin a TW? ...
- ...and also to visit (merely read) a TW?
As Jeremy points out, the dat:// protocol is not usable with other
browsers at the moment. ... But if it gets enough traction that other
browsers would loose market share, they may implement it. ... (in the
future)
It's beta software atm. The version number is 0.5.x. So imo it's still
early enough, to get some of the TW ideas into the project, which will be
beneficial for both projects.
-mario
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Paul Frazee
2016-12-27 15:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Good thoughts, Dmitry. I will keep them in mind
Post by Dmitry Sokolov
Paul,
I think, Beaker is a huge step towards P2P Web.
Thank you for that.
Most of my customers are working under Windows OS with files and folders.
Customers appreciate knowing how to backup and synchronise data because
that is critical for their business. Introducing "wiki" or anything else is
already too much for them. Ideally, the whole system must include no
elements to learn.
1. paper documents
2. electronic documents
3. ideas / concepts / topics, and
4. the way of organising all bits and pieces of information, above,
for quick access and reuse
What they know is that
1. paper documents are stored in folders on shelves and retained for
certain number of years / months
2. electronic documents are stored in computers and must be backuped
3. ideas, etc., are stored personally. Ideas management is a pain and
better not to touch it
4. overall, information management is a nightmare. Don't even talk
about that. Just give me a solution
I can't talk about wikis and wiki stores.
I can talk about ideas
- stored individually, as single files,
- can be found as easy as the other (Windows?) files by their titles and
- opened in future by either MS Word, or by a web browser.
- All files and folders can be easily synchronised, accessed and
restored as soon as needed.
So, these are the frames I am trying to work in.
Your suggestions would be highly appreciated.
Cheers,
Dmitry
Post by Paul Frazee
I can answer some of those Beaker questions
Another question, are these site files easily accessible on the file
Post by Arlen Beiler
system? Or is this another "Local store"? :)
It's a local store but that's kind of an open question. We could move the
files into an easily-accessible path (eg ~/Dats) though I do lose a little
bit of control then. For instance, it might be nice to implement
transactional writes that fail if another tab writes the file concurrently,
and I won't be able to supply that guard as easily if apps other than
Beaker are writing to the files.
That said, we do have some tools for this already. If you watch this
screencast <https://beakerbrowser.com/docs/howto/use-bkr.html> you can
see the `bkr` command that lets you do checkouts of dat sites to custom
folders. We might be able to build on that.
I'm interested to hear what people want/need.
Also, can you run regular chrome at the same time as this? I guess that
Post by Arlen Beiler
might be more of a dev question.
Yeah it's a different data directory. No collisions
Post by Arlen Beiler
Jeremy,
I suppose Beaker has your spell checker that everyone wanted in
TiddlyDesktop :)
Also, if you do implement a tiddler-based format, would it use the
standard data folder format? Or if you need a new format to get
authoritative file names, could it possibly be ported back to NodeJS?
I have often thought about doing something like this with the TiddlyWiki
Dropbox saver, where it would sync individual files.
Another question, are these site files easily accessible on the file
system? Or is this another "Local store"? :)
Also, can you run regular chrome at the same time as this? I guess that
might be more of a dev question.
Sounds quite interesting.
Cheers,
-Arlen
Post by PMario
Post by Mat
Very interesting. Only Mac so I can't try anything but just to make
sure I understand the implications for a TW context;
- is the dat:// scheme not usable in regular browsers? (I find no
public site using it and basically no info on it outside of the Beaker
project).
- ...and therefore, would one need special browsers both to admin a TW? ...
- ...and also to visit (merely read) a TW?
As Jeremy points out, the dat:// protocol is not usable with other
browsers at the moment. ... But if it gets enough traction that other
browsers would loose market share, they may implement it. ... (in the
future)
It's beta software atm. The version number is 0.5.x. So imo it's still
early enough, to get some of the TW ideas into the project, which will be
beneficial for both projects.
-mario
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